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keiiii
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Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Reminiscingreen wrote: | | hmm... somehow i doubt kei will break her "no one in my comic has a nice personality" streak. >=] I could always be wrong, though. |
Haha, I've already broken it with June. XD She's clearly an outlier, though.
It's way too early for people to judge Phoenix. The recent scenes have shown bits and pieces of what she was like as a child, but the present-day 34-year-old Phoenix remains an enigma. You don't know what she's up to; you don't know what she has done, or what she has gone through, between the current flashback and present day; you don't know what she wants (aside from meeting Chi-Min) or why she wants what she wants.
| Reminiscingreen wrote: | | And... forsrs, she looks like she's about to kick the bucket... and people always do crazy things when their lives are in danger before they want to "go". (I TRUST YOU, KEI. D=< ) |
This is a great point! We'll see.
| HitsugayaFan wrote: | | I'd argue that Phoenix is *perhaps* a little bit powerful, but is not really a Mary Sue, especially if my theories about Phoenix are correct. |
Oooh... What are your theories? Please tell me~ *_* 
*dies of curiosity*
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Kafine
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Sarah_Riddle wrote: | People are sooooooo gotten throw rotten fruit and veggies at me for this.
The more I read, the more I come to the opinion that Phoenix is a mary-sue. It's just... Ohmygoodness! She's this ultra-powerful elf that no one could ever hope to beat in a fair (or unfair) fight! Plus she has a tragic past. And she has an interest in our main male character. But where are her FLAWS? I mean non-physical. Please tell me she's a puppy kicker or insecure or -something-!
Who knows... Maybe when we get more information, I'll change my mind. It's possible. |
Don't worry, the same thing occurred to me, it's the natural assumption as soon as someone's that pretty and that powerful. But I still love Phoenix to bits and I think Keiiii has the ability to handle this sort of character without making her too boring and Suey.
I think she's probably pretty unhinged by now. (Phoenix, not Keiiii!)
But we will just have to wait and seee
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Reminiscingreen
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| keiiii wrote: | | Haha, I've already broken it with June. XD She's clearly an outlier, though. |
xD I won't be one to (openly) disagree with the omniscient author, but I thought June developed to a state a bit beyond that of a typical "Mary Sue". She MIGHT be some sub-genre (I was reading up on this last night, as I am woefully ignorant on the subject)..... but... HMMMmmmm...
i actually originally posted june as an example in that response, in contrast to phoenix. i just... well, i changed my mind at the last minute. although she has a "nice" and "likeable" personality, june also has her moments of selfishness, to which i think she admits. And... I think she has a shallow way of thinking. it IS cute, but it is so blatantly naive in a 'Just So' way that I find it hard to classify her as a "Mary Sue". in and of itself, it isn't "likeable" or "nice", but that's me and my preferences.
>=D I only want to hear theories to read Kei's reactions. (none of which will be helpful. ho~.)
OH! I WANT TO HEAR PEOPLE RECORD VOICES FOR THE HS CHARACTERS. >=D i think it would be awesome if people did their own HS reading with different voices and such. i was thinking about cygnet's and phoenix's voices... i was thinking cygnet would have a particularly melodious voice- nothing monotone, simply because i think he holds a certain amount of charisma and persuasive power... and phoenix might have something similar, but less refined, and perhaps with some raspiness...? i feel like she might do a bit of screaming... for plenty of reasons. |
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HitsugayaFan
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: |
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XP They're not anything particularly interesting, keiii... I've just spent too much time on the Megatokyo Story Discussion forums and thus have taken to overanalyzing things.
My only theories are just relating to Phoenix's - older Phoenix's - mental state/morality. I.E. whether or not she really understands what kind of person her brother is, her attitudes towards killing others, and so on...
However, I'm looking to answer these by just contently reading the story ahead.  |
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keiiii
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Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 1415
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Wait wait, "nice" or "likable" do NOT necessarily mean Mary Sue! It's perfectly possible to have a non-Sue character with a nice personality. A character is only a Mary Sue when he/she is not believable.
An extremely blatant example would be a 15-year-old girl with: fluency in eight languages, virtuoso skills with at least two instruments (and having a beautiful singing voice to boot), mysterious telepathic/prophetic powers, haunting eyes that draw you in, an altruistic personality, a "cool" nickname such as White Wolf of Himalaya or Amethyst Rose of Silken Destiny, etc. She is unfairly shunned by everyone, but all the important characters are attracted to her (or at least are interested in her in one way or the other), including those who are cold/evil/etc. She also has a ridiculously tragic past of sorts, such as watching her entire family get slaughtered before her eyes, etc. A pair of beautiful wings may sprout from her back with no explanation whatsoever when she needs to fly/ uses her magical powers/ etc. Bonus points if a major plot twist reveals her to be the chosen one/ royalty/ whatever.
...Amethyst Rose of Silken Destiny. *dies from Sueness overdose*
Here's a good link for those of you who haven't seen it before: Mary Sue Litmus Test.
"Too trusting" is a common cheap flaw used in an attempt to de-Suefy a Mary Sue. Of course, this doesn't always work, i.e. it often fails to make the character any more believable. Despite this, I don't think June is a Mary Sue. The "too trusting" part of her personality is not just something thrown on her character. You can see how it works with all the other gears of the story. She's naive, and despite her curiosity, she doesn't really question anyone's motives because she tends to take things at face value. As a result, she is totally left out of the Loop of Conspiracy -- for now anyway. It's logical, and believable.
There's not much I can say about Phoenix at this time. |
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Reminiscingreen
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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well, you know what they say about wikipedia: everything coming out of that website is God.
or, in this case, just misleading. in scanning their article I first found
| Quote: | | The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet" |
which is where my mind made a hop-skip-jump conclusion and pulled the words "nice" and "likeable", no doubt. "exceptional" and "wonderful" probably weren't jaded enough for my tastes when I made the character parallel with this connotation... specifically, that "mary sues", in my mind, are as flat as pancakes because they are so full of but a few, specific qualities that said characteristics overpower anything "deep" that might bring out a new dimensionality in the character. (which is why i wouldn't call june a mary sue. i think her flaws are more subtle. either that, or i'm more dense and unobservant. >___> ) =D if that makes sense.
but such are semantics. i agree with your definition; i only plead that i am, again, woefully ignorant on the subject and am not fit to discuss it without more than a thirty second debriefing using a wikipedia page written by people with more self-righteous english bias than i have hair. LMAO. it's no biggie. i could probably still die a blissfully ignorant woman without knowing what a mary sue is. xD (most especially now because... it makes me want to trash all of my old character ideas. in a bad way. *i* like them, but i am more aware now of how other people would probably NOT like them.-- HAHA, the litmus test. ha. heehee.)
(cygnet: head away from the roof. you know what happens on rooftops? D=< bad things. always, always, bad things.) |
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DarkToLight
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Inside your mind :O
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I don't think June's a Mary-Sue, because M-S's set my teeth on edge and make me want to hurt things
Phoenix has some aspects of sue-ness, but that doesn't make her one, really. Her name is explainable (Even if it is awesome) and I'm sure her high power levels will be explained at some point, too ^^
It's like the Ichigo rule: it's not a ridiculous powerup/notion if someone else has done it before/it's proved by theory.
And hahaha, I wouldn't go to the roof. They can snipe you from the roof!
(Chi?WherebeChi?) |
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keiiii
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Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Okay. I got a better definition: when the entire story is merely a vehicle for telling you how awesome the character is -- an excuse for the character to shine like the Lens Flare filter, you've got a classic case of a Mary Sue.
Having a precedent cannot save a character from Sueism if the whole story is about his/her awesome powers being awesomely awesome. Conversely, being ridiculously overpowered without a precedent does not automatically produce a Mary Sue.
I don't want the comic to explain why Phoenix is so powerful, or whether there had been other elves like her. IMO that brings her closer to the Mary Sue territory because then the story changes from "why and how life sucks so much for these characters" to "why this one character is so awesome."
And here's the most important thing. Phoenix's magic, extreme as it may be, cannot make her personal problems go away. She's the single most powerful character in the comic; at the same time, she's also arguably the most tragic of them all. A Mary Sue can miraculously save the day and make everything right. Phoenix cannot.
Haru-Sari is not a story that revolves around what the characters are, what their powers are, etc. It revolves around who they are, what kind of choices they make, etc. |
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HitsugayaFan
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Also, keiii, I forgot to reply to the question on the page. I think of Phoenix of having a quiet, somewhat low kid's voice - like, not low by adult standards, but low when thinking about kid's voices. Cygnet... ...just now, a sort of bratty kid's voice came to mind.  |
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kayleanetta
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Here..There...Everywhere... E-I-E-I-O!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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i have a question about the Cygnet Effect.
when two elves experience it does it work like waves in such that when two crests meet they become a superwave?
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Sarah_Riddle
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: A CMxJ World
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Wow... I opened a can of discussion. Go me!
And I did say "with more information" I could change my mind. Reading through all the discussions just now (I was away this weekend at a massage convention) I have to say that I agree that Phoenix has "aspects of mary-sueism". And although I know it didn't seem like it in my original post, I do trust keiiii who has said she doesn't like mary-sues. (please note I don't even capitalize the name.)
However, uber powers plus tragic past. You can't tell me being cruelly experimented on isn't tragic. And, so far, the characters that matter have some form of interest in her.
Including ones we would deem "bad guys" for how they treated her so carelessly. Albeit, they were more interested in her uber powers...
However, as I have said before, more information is needed before we can fully say Phoenix is or isn't a mary-sue.
Or, we can simply take keiiii's word for her non-mary-sue-ness.
*shrug*
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DarkToLight
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Inside your mind :O
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair, they're all pretty tragic in H-S. Phoenix was experimented on, Cygnet was held at the institution and had to watch heklplessly whilst they tortured/experimented on her, Chi-Min made his mother go crazy by being born, June's mother died of the same disease that's eating her, Leon... Well.
But yeah. It seems to be the norm to be tragic |
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keiiii
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Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 1415
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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kayleanetta: I'm sorry, what? ^^;; Can you use a different analogy?
| DarkToLight wrote: | To be fair, they're all pretty tragic in H-S. Phoenix was experimented on, Cygnet was held at the institution and had to watch heklplessly whilst they tortured/experimented on her, Chi-Min made his mother go crazy by being born, June's mother died of the same disease that's eating her, Leon... Well.
But yeah. It seems to be the norm to be tragic |
Well, that's not the kind of tragedy I mean. The tragedy you mentioned is still about 'what' the characters are. It says nothing* about who they are, or what kind of choices they make/ have made.
*except Cortinon, since it was a conscious choice on his part to treat his elves that way. |
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DarkToLight
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Inside your mind :O
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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That was more a response to Sarah, but I do get what you mean.
I don't personally think that any of the characters are Mary-Sues. I mean, a character can have all the M-S traits (none of them really have many) and still not be a M-S
Yeah, the "who" is how you react to the tragedies you have no control over. I mean, everyone has tragedies of some point in their lives (not as bad as some of the characters in H-S, admittedly, but for example the husband of one of my teachers has recently passed away). It's how you deal with them, react to them, that makes you who you are, right? If Cygnet had reacted to exploding the elves by having a nervous breakdown and being "put down", as it were, then H-S wouldn't even have a story
And speaking of Cortinon... Hmm. I'm wondering now exactly how much he knows. I mean, Alby is kinda tempting fate by taking Francis' name, isn't he? Plus his ears have been tampered with, and Mana/any other elf he meets can sense his residual elf-ness. That, combined with how much Cortinon loathes him... He's got to at least suspect, if not know outright.
So now the question is, if he does in fact know, why hasn't he said anything? Maybe he's afraid of Phoenix-shaped retaliation... |
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NortheasternWind
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 166
Location: Somewhere in Wisconsin. Or Canada, you never know.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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This comment is way overdue, but that's just like Alberich to be panicking and not traumatized.
"I-I just killed three other people! I gonna get my goose cooked!"
Back to mary-sue discussion...
...
I'm actually pretty crummy at identifying flaws in just about anything until someone else points them out to me or they're REALLY obvious, so I think I'll stay out of this one .__.
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